Air Machinegun Forum
General Air Machinegun Discussion Category => Drozd and Blackbird Discussion => Topic started by: TBK on February 18, 2016, 11:26:09 PM
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Would anyone be interested in an aftermarket Blackbird auger? Some of you know I designed and built some several years ago. I recently made some more for some of my projects. They seem to feed really well and are a drop-in replacement.
TBK
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I'm interested. How bout a trade for one of my magnetic auger shafts. Mine work with no air shots up to about 3.2K with steel. I know exactly why they drop off in performance after that. I just don't have the machinery to build what is needed. I'd love to trade notes. We could come up with an auger that works great for steel, and lead.
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I think my auger works pretty well and will feed at about any speed you might care to try. I'll have to try it at 4K, but I don't think the auger itself will be any kind of a limitation.
I have everything set up to make augers, and have another iteration that may be what you are looking for.
I also have put some magnets in my auger and will let you know how that works and if there are any benefits with the magnets in there. I thought the internal bore for the magnets would weaken it too much, but there is still enough wall thickness that it doesn't appear to matter.
The cycle time is so short at 4K rpm. Are you still using the stock valve spring in the mag head?
TBK
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Yes. That's the only spring I didn't change in the firing, and feeding. If I were to go further I would try a weaker valve spring, and let the air pressure do more of the work for the return. You will find when you drop below around 20 V the motor draws a ton of current fighting the poundage necessary to force the bb's into firing position. This draws power from the solenoid causing a burst, and then the counter continues to run until you release the trigger. This is what was happening when I thought there was a problem with the firmware.
The motor you, and Cam came up with is good for 3K with a magnetic auger at 100% with a tighter clutch, and no bb shaker. I did many tests to get it to 4K without success. I'm not saying it's not possible. I just can't definitively say with the limited air I had. You will still have the same problem of the motor overdrawing current with your motor, but exasperated. This is where a real slider switch would come in handy to bridge the jumper for a full range gun.
I would love to try one of your augers, and give you a report. That spring bullshit really needs to go.
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I have never been a fan of the spring, so I did my own thing. It is a neat way of moving things. I grew up in a rural farm area, and my dad designed farm equipment, so I have been familiar with augers moving things for 40+ years!
FYI, I just put magnets in there to see if it was even possible for all you experimenters out there. I am just wondering if anyone is interested in a non-spring type auger. I am still working on a different non-shaker design.
Yes. That's the only spring I didn't change in the firing, and feeding. If I were to go further I would try a weaker valve spring, and let the air pressure do more of the work for the return. You will find when you drop below around 20 V the motor draws a ton of current fighting the poundage necessary to force the bb's into firing position. This draws power from the solenoid causing a burst, and then the counter continues to run until you release the trigger. This is what was happening when I thought there was a problem with the firmware.
The motor you, and Cam came up with is good for 3K with a magnetic auger at 100% with a tighter clutch, and no bb shaker. I did many tests to get it to 4K without success. I'm not saying it's not possible. I just can't definitively say with the limited air I had. You will still have the same problem of the motor overdrawing current with your motor, but exasperated. This is where a real slider switch would come in handy to bridge the jumper for a full range gun.
I would love to try one of your augers, and give you a report. That spring bullshit really needs to go.
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I think a plastic auger would be great for shooting lead. I have been mulling over buying some for a few years. Maybe it's time I did. I have known about this link for a couple of years. I probably should have shared it back then, but I really wasn't interested in shooting it at the time. Does anyone here have any experience with this seller? I wonder if it will bite the threads on a Jim C. barrel.
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Nickel-Plated-lead-shot-BB-45mm177-11lbs/productinfo/NP2B/ (http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Nickel-Plated-lead-shot-BB-45mm177-11lbs/productinfo/NP2B/)
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I have bought from them. They ship fast. My last order was that nickel plated shot last year. That has been around for quite a while. Dubb and Camracer were screening it make sure the consistency was good for best feeding. I measured the last batch when I got it but don't have the results in front of me. Dubb gave me some info on where/how it would jam in the blackbird mag with my auger.
Has anyone gauged the ID of the JimC barrel? I will measure some more of the shot and we can compare.
TBK
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That is in fact the same lead DUBB and I have been using for a handfull of years. It needs to be screened as it was inconsistent in size and roundness. You have to keep in mind that this is meant for shotgun loads and NOT bb guns.
In my experience when screened, I find it excellent ammo to use in the 30 round original mags. It is actually all I use in them for rodent control.
Don't expect it to be super accurate, but I don't complain at all. Especially when in "Full Psycho" mode (as DUBB likes to say ;D ).
When screened, about 25% of what you buy will be waste. Not a problem if you reload shotshells, eh?
Over at the other forum, years ago we ended up buying Ballistic Products' stock up. Some members began to complain to BP that their product was inconsistent to the point where BP pulled the product from their catalog.
Well anyway, BP has had that back in stock for well over a year. It is worth a try, and it's cheap enough anyway.
I screen my NP lead shot to .180". JimC's barrel is also a .180" bore, (correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure). It will grab the rifling in the bore.
I am curious to see if BP's manufacturer has improved their quality control on this product. If you get any, I would like to see a close-up photo of the product. I will soon have to buy more since my 50lb. supply is almost gone.
---Cam
BTW, here is a photo of the screen I made to sort the NP lead:
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Here are some photos I posted long ago on the other forum showing what it looks like after you hit hard targets with the NP lead. The bottom photo is what some of the bad screened shot looked like back then.
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Thanks for all the info guys. Now I just have to try!
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OK. I bought a bag to try. What Doesn't go through the screen will not be wasted. I don't reload shotgun shells, but the stuff that is not up to muster will make excellent canister shot for flocks of Starlings:^) Now I'm going to have to buy a drill press just to make the screen lol!
Cam. I will post the pics when I receive it.
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I didn't dump my whole bag to check, but the most recent stuff I got looks better than your photo of the waste you had. I will have to whip up a screen like yours as well.
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Someone asked me about making my screen once before. He didn't have the plexglass to make it. I suggested maybe a container like a large plastic margarine container with holes drilled in it... Use what you have. Just a thought.
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Cam -
I saw your post confirming the BPI NPLS looks better now and you would not be screening it.
Parellax- Did you still want to sell my augers? I am trying to balance out my time and focus on the things I like to do and need to finish that can further the fun with air machineguns. Also, check your PM about a new batch of augers.
TBK
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Absolutely! I know where you are coming from. I'm sure we can make something happen.
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I was making augers and the power kept going out. I think I am back in business now. While tempting another power flicker, I was testing some related ideas for augers. The results look really good. Once I get the regular augers made I will get back to the different one.
TBK
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I am making more augers so I will soon finish the ones that I owe some of you. I am waiting on the material for the pins and I will finish up and get them sent out.
I had a request for one of my augers with magnets in it. I obliged and finished the surgical insertion of the magnets a few minutes ago. The surgery was a success. It attracts quite a few BBs and when in the magazine, the BBs head to an equilibrium spot and actually rotate the auger a little bit. (That is without a drive pin to lock the auger to the drive shaft.) I can't wait to see how that works out! Good luck!
This is turning out pretty well at this point. I designed the augers a long time ago when working on a new magazine. A few people were using them and giving me great feedback on them. I tweaked a thing or two and now they work really well and even better than before. I think the basic design will help feed the lead shot, and also provide good support for you speed demons that have the RPMs way up there.
I look forward to your input and hope these augers continue to be a successful upgrade for the BB! There's a lot more neat stuff on the way!
TBK
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O boy!
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I finally got some augers sent out. They should arrive at their destinations in a couple if days.
TBK
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The augers are being delivered! Please PM me if you have any questions about them.
If anyone else wants to buy one, I still have some left out of the last batch.
TBK
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Excellent work TBK! I can't wait to try mine out. I can see all of the thought you put into this. I can tell just by looking at it that it's going to be jam up, and jelly tight. Very cool! Thank you so much.
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I have a ton of footage to edit from testing the prototype magnetic auger TBK sent. I am being very thorough in detailing exactly what I am doing. After all the prep, and setup today I tested 2K RPM. The auger performed flawlessly with no air shots. Since the first test went so well I bumped it up to 3K. The 18.5 V pack I was using didn't have enough power at 20.35 V so I went to my 14500's for 25.09 V. That was plenty of power, and gave me about 80%. The tests today were done with the 4K RPM Nichibo, and stock auger spring tightened as tight as I could get it without it binding. Each run was as close to 100 rnds as I could get. Next I will see how far it will go with a stiffer clutch spring. So far I am very impressed.
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Glad you like it. I think it is a big improvement. Let me know how it works with the bpi lead shot in your gun at 700 to 1200 rpm range if you have a chance to check that out as well.
TBK
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Will do. Here is the first video. I know it's pretty long, but I didn't want to leave anything out. It's a lot easier to point someone to a video when they ask you how you did something. It's also how I record my notes. I spent this morning working on 3K, and I made it. So far I am at 50% with 4K after one try. I believe from this point on I will just need to fine tune the clutch. This can be quite time consuming. Before I do that I will give a full mag a try without the slider to see what happens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAC0cCdSm_4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAC0cCdSm_4)
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Here is the second video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EidmM4Xvf1o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EidmM4Xvf1o)
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I like your videos. You do a good job with documenting what you do.
I wouldn't call my auger a prototype, though. I have made quite a few of them and they are well beyond a prototype. I was making this auger years ago. I just added the magnets for you to help you out with trying to eliminate the shaker and as an existing way to possibly get 4k rpm. I will wait anxiously for your continued results! It is great to see others working with BBMGs and having fun with them!
Having pins on the end of the auger vs. not having them is optional for the auger for the BB and was designed that way. There are a lot of other things that are not apparent in the design. I have a whole other set of specs on the auger end condition for various applications, but for the BB the auger centers itself in the pocket made for the original drive spring in the stock condition. The original spring drive needs the center shaft to work, my auger works without the separate piece, and centers well for the BB. I also have some other things you may want to try to get by without the shaker, but it will be a while for that...
Also, when I get some more time I am going to make some more of my complete mags if you are interested. There are a whole lot of things working together to get the bbs to feed well.
Just a thought... Have you done the DUBB-like test on just running the BBs out of the bottom of the mag to see what the auger is actually feeding out of the bb reservoir vs. what is actually getting up to the chamber and firing? He did that for start up, but you could do the same thing when firing.
What is the vintage of your yellow Drozd, and is that an original solenoid and solenoid return spring? I found that the solenoid return spring wasn't stong/fast enough to cycle somewhere around 2000 rpm IIRC without the help of the valve spring and pressure in the valve. The cycle is very short at 4000 rpm - about 15ms!
Keep up the good work and keep having fun!
TBK
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The magnets are 1/8" x 1/4" N42, diametrically magnetized. That was the best I could find to fit the auger. Yes they are just a press fit. You should be able to very carefully push them out. There are 5 or 6 in there. I did not attempt to optimize the individual positions along the auger. You could push them towards the drive end, or towards the exit end. However, at the exit, each BB is controlled so the magnetism won't be needed to keep a BB down in the auger channel.
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The magnets appear to be in the optimal position. The reason I refer to it as a "prototype" is for lack of a better term. I realize you have been making these for some time, but without magnets. I know it's an oversimplification on my part, but this is completely brand new for many viewers. I meant no disrespect.
All of the tests on camera with your auger have been with the bb shaker in the mag. This was done because I found with my auger it is much more user friendly to leave it in. BTW. I did use a stiffer auger spring in the 4K calling it video. It felt like the spring was still compressing under the hopper even after I routed the open spring end to the center of the auger shaft.
Anyway Camracer has a gun set up to do what I would like to for another test that would tell us a lot if he is willing. I want to do a test where the speed of the motor can be slowed while the board can maintain the power going to the solenoid. The spring allows for slop, a wider space for bb's to fall into the auger should correct this for extreme ROF. Think about each slot like a magazine. Then think of the slots being wider at the hopper side. My thinking is if they go in the back in a double stack formation the bb's on top can be squeezed out by the time they enter the feed channel in a controlled manner with enough magnetic attraction.
I am really amazed how your auger works with no end pins. It doesn't jam under the heaviest punishment I can deliver. Neither does it show any wear in my mag, or the auger. I thought that might be an issue, but it's completely dialed in. Totally awesome!
I did try DUBB's test, but it was off camera with no shaker towards the end of the second video. The mag would not cycle at 24V with the 10K RPM motor.
The Bumblebee is an '02 I believe. It is the same gun I hit 4K with using a 30 rnd mag that you later taught me how to make a spring for. Remember this? Cam asked for this test.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87R8DbgJdGI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87R8DbgJdGI)
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Keep up the good work Parellax. Things are coming along very nicely.
Two things to try I am curious about:
One is how the vent holes on the mag neck will affect the results. Sealing them vs. keeping them open.
At 1000 psi, I am not sure how much of a difference it may or may not make, but some of the air shots could be a result of the air forced down the mag neck when firing. That will become more pronounced as air pressure is increased.
The other is the pulse setting. I see you had it set on 4 during testing. I would like to see what changes will happen to your shots counted at 4000 rpm if you turn your pulse all the way up. Will it make the shot count much worse??
I do have TBK's auger in one of my mags. The magnets I put into that auger were axially magnetized, not diametrically magnetized. Also I spaced the 1/8" x 1/4" magnets I had each 1/8" apart. I think I put four magnets into the auger, maybe five, so that it was magnetized more on the hopper end of the auger and no magnet at the output end.
Also, I did not put end nibs on my auger. It is free floating. Lastly, I removed the shaker.
I have not yet tried it out. Been too busy lately. I will get to it soon.
And just to note, I have one of the 2000 rpm circuit boards installed. I have no plans to install a 4000 right now in my Drozd.
So, as for the motor speed control, I can try it out for 2000 rpm only.
It will be really interesting to fire my Drozd at 2000 rpm. I have had Sergeys 2000 rpm board for a long time and never got it working perfect past 1600rpm. That seems like it will change!
Thanks for testing using the 30 round mag. A stiffer spring was what was needed, as you thought.
The advances everyone has done here is great! Things are really falling nicely into place.
I'll keep you informed soon.
---Cam
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2K is a piece of cake with either auger with magnets. Even 3K is pretty much a breeze so I think you are going to love how your gun runs when you try it out.
With the stronger motor, and stiffer clutch spring I can actually mushroom the mag with the motor force alone. I can't fit a BB mag in the B with a mag clip that prevents mushrooming because the screws on the latch plate will not pass the mag release lever. There is just not as mushroom in there as my birds. I am going to have to change guns once I get some stronger magnets for the auger to avoid grinding on my B mag lever.
What I have found with the pulse setting is at 4 ms using 9 V the valve will not open. It takes 11 V before the valve begins to open. The valve is fully opened at 15 V @ 4 ms. Sergey, and I were scratching our heads when I was doing some stock voltage testing with the SB-4K. He remembered I keep my guns at 4 ms, and suggested I try 7 ms (around where the stock board is set). That worked perfectly at 9 V. The reason I use a pulse of 4 MS is because at high voltages there is no more fps gain even at 1600 psi. The other reason is at 4K a bb is being fired every 15 ms. If I ramp it up to 12 ms that only leaves 3 ms for the plunger to fire, open the valve, and then return. I will try the higher settings just to see what happens though. There actually might be a sweet spot that will allow me to loosen the clutch.
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Ok thanks. Good info to share.
I will try the higher settings just to see what happens though. There actually might be a sweet spot that will allow me to loosen the clutch.
That's what I was thinking. Same with the motor speed, as you well know.
BTW, I had an issue with my homemade latch plate, like you had. I had to grind a bit of plastic on my first Drozd to make it fit perfect.
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In this third part I do some fooling around with the pulse, but not much. I will do more when I go back up to 4K. I really want to leave no stone unturned so I jumped back down to 3K for more testing with the 4K RPM motor, and the 18.5 V battery pack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5LitNsgBVQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5LitNsgBVQ)
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I finally got around to ordering some N42 diametrically polarized 1/8" X 1/4" magnets for TBK's auger. I ordered seven of them so I can almost span the entire length just to see what happens.
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I received the magnets yesterday, and filled up the auger. I tried it with the 10K motor with an 18.5V pack. I only tried it with the plate out of the mag, and it didn't feed properly.
I was just thinking some more about how I can use my stock with the MSC in it. Since I have it wired directly to the board I can try decreasing the voltage, and upping the pulse. That will at least give me some range to play with. I haven't been feeling too good lately because all of the pollen in the air so I haven't felt like doing mush testing lately. That reminds me. Hey Fred. I can ship you a garbage bag full of pollen, and a jug of mosquito larvae if you want.